Wikipedia:Categories for discussion

"WP:CFD" redirects here. For criteria for deletion, see WP:Criteria for deletion.

"WP:CFR" redirects here. For criteria for redaction, see WP:Criteria for redaction.

XFD backlog

V	Aug	Sep	Oct	Nov	Total
CfD	0	0	0	19	19
TfD	0	0	0	5	5
MfD	0	0	2	5	7
FfD	0	0	1	2	3
RfD	0	0	8	39	47
AfD	0	0	0	3	3

Categories for discussion (CfD) is the central venue for discussing specific proposals to delete, merge, rename or split categories and stub types in accordance with the guidelines for categorization, category naming and stub articles.

For detailed instructions about using CfD, see "How to use CfD" below. Briefly, nominations are handled through one of two processes:

1. Speedy renaming and merging, for uncontroversial proposals that meet specified criteria—see "Speedy renaming and merging" below.
2. Full discussion, for all other proposals. Discussions typically remain open for at least seven days and are closed once a rough consensus has formed or no objections to the nomination are raised.

Except in uncontroversial cases such as reverting vandalism, do not amend or depopulate a category once it has been nominated at CfD as this hampers other editors' efforts to evaluate a category and participate in the discussion.

When a category is renamed or merged with another category, in limited circumstances it may be helpful to leave an instance of the {{Category redirect|...}} template on the category's former page. See "Redirecting categories" below for more information.

Wikipedia:Move review can be used to contest the outcome of a CfD request that is limited in scope to renaming, as long as all steps are followed. If a discussion on the request closer's talk page does not resolve an issue, then a move review will evaluate the close of a CfD move discussion to determine whether or not the close was reasonable and consistent with the spirit and intent of common practice, policies, and guidelines. CfDs involving deletion should be reviewed at Wikipedia:Deletion review.

Scope

CfD is intended only for specific proposals to delete, merge, rename or split categories or stub types. For general discussion about how to improve the category system, use other appropriate venues such as Wikipedia talk:Categorization, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Categories, and any relevant WikiProjects' talk pages.

Current discussions

Add a new entry

• All current discussions
  • 15 November (Friday)
  • 14 November (Thursday)
  • 13 November (Wednesday)
  • 12 November (Tuesday)
  • 11 November (Monday)
  • 10 November (Sunday)
  • 9 November (Saturday)
  • 8 November (Friday)
  • Previous 8 to 21 days
• Speedy renaming requests
• Archive and indices

Discussions awaiting closure

• Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 November 7 (16 open)
• Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 November 5 (2 open)
• Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 November 3 (1 open)

See also the list of individual discussions awaiting closure here and the list of full open discussions awaiting closure here.

How to use CfD

Nomination procedure

Twinkle

You may use Twinkle to facilitate CfD nominations. To install Twinkle, go to Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets and check "Twinkle" in the "Browsing" section. Use the now-installed "XfD" (Start a deletion discussion) tab while viewing the page you want to nominate.

Twinkle only allows you to nominate a single category or stub template. For bundled nominations including multiple categories, see § MassCFD.

MassCFD

You can use the script User:Qwerfjkl/scripts/massXFD to automatically make mass nominations.

Manual nominations

I	Preliminary steps. Before nominating a category: Read and understand the guidance for category names and overcategorization. For categories containing biographical articles, read the guidance for categorization of people. For categories containing the user pages of Wikipedians, read the guidance for user categories. In the following special cases: If a category is a red link, then it is already deleted (or was never created in the first place) and does not need to be nominated. If a category is unpopulated, use {{db-catempty}} to request it be speedily deleted in 7 days. If a category is populated solely by a template (other than a stub template, see #Stub types below) and you are proposing to delete both the category and template, follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion. For further information, see Wikipedia:Categorization and Wikipedia:Manual of Style.
II	Edit the category. Add one of the following templates at the beginning of the category page (not the talk page) of every category to be discussed. For nominations involving large numbers of categories, help adding these templates can be requested here. Otherwise, if nominating a single category: For deleting, use {{subst:Cfd}} For merging, use {{subst:Cfm|Other category}} For merging to two categories, use {{subst:Cfm-double|Other category 1|Other category 2}} For renaming, use {{subst:Cfr|Proposed name}} For splitting, use {{subst:Cfs|Proposed name 1|Proposed name 2}} For converting the category into a list, use {{subst:Cfl|Proposed name}} For other options (containerization, etc.), use {{subst:Cfd|type=nature of proposed discussion}} (see Template:Cfd/doc#Optional parameter) If nominating a group of related categories, use a bundled nomination: For deleting, use {{subst:Cfd|CfD section name}} For merging, use {{subst:Cfm|Other category|CfD section name}} For merging to two categories, use {{subst:Cfm-double|Other category 1|Other category 2|CfD section name}} For renaming, use {{subst:Cfr|Proposed name|CfD section name}} For splitting, use {{subst:Cfs|Proposed name 1|Proposed name 2|CfD section name}} For converting the category into a list, {{subst:Cfl|Proposed name|CfD section name}} For other options (containerization, etc.), use {{subst:Cfd|type=nature of proposed discussion|CfD section name}} (see Template:Cfd/doc#Optional parameter) Include "CfD", "CfM", "CfR", "CfS" or "CfL" in the edit summary, and do not mark the edit as minor. Preview before saving. To add the template for previous nomination days, use the "full" version of the template by appending "full" to the template name, i.e. {{cfd full}}, {{cfm full}}, {{cfr full}}, {{cfs full}} and {{cfl full}}. Use the |day=, |month= and |year= parameters to make the banner link to the correct CfD page. Consider adding {{subst:cfd notice|Category name|2024 November 15|CfD section name}} ~~~~ to the talk page of the category's creator. For details about these templates, see each template's documentation.
III	Create the CFD section. Click THIS LINK to edit the section of CfD for today's entries. Follow the instructions (visible in edit mode) to copy and paste one of the templates below. When inserting category names into these template's parameters, except the text= parameter, omit the Category: prefix and do not use wikilinks, as the template takes care of this. If nominating a single category: For deleting, use {{subst:Cfd2|Obsolete category|text=Your reason(s) for the proposed deletion. ~~~~}} For merging, use {{subst:Cfm2|Origin category|Destination category|text=Your reason(s) for the proposed merge. ~~~~}} For merging to two categories, use {{subst:Cfm2|Origin category|Destination category 1|target2=Destination category 2|text=Your reason(s) for the proposed merge. ~~~~}} For renaming, use {{subst:Cfr2|Current category|Proposed name|text=Your reason(s) for the proposed rename. ~~~~}} For splitting, use {{subst:Cfs2|Current category|Proposed category 1|Proposed category 2|text=Your reason(s) for the proposed split. ~~~~}} For converting the category into a list, use {{subst:Cfc2|Current category|Proposed article|text=Your reason(s) for the proposed conversion. ~~~~}} For other options (containerization, etc.), use {{subst:Cfd2|Current category|type=other type|text=Your reason(s) for the proposed conversion. ~~~~}} For a bundled nomination, use one of the standard templates to build the "Cfd section name" for the first nominated category. After saving that, the second and subsequent nominations must be inserted manually, as follows: ==== Cfd section name ==== * 1st category * 2nd category [Make clear whether you propose deletion, merging or renaming] * Your reason for nominating the categories, and signature. If a bundled nomination is too long, consider using {{hidden}} to hide some of the nominated categories. In your reason, use links if mentioning articles or categories. To link to a category, use the colon trick by adding a colon (:) to the beginning of the link, e.g. [[:Category:Foo]]. Preview before saving to check that your nomination is formatted correctly, and remember to include your signature at the end of the nomination.

Stub types

I	Preliminary steps. In general, a stub type consists of a stub template and a dedicated stub category. Before nominating a stub type for deletion, merging or renaming: Read and understand guidance for creating stub types and stub type naming conventions. Review the list of existing stub types—be advised, this list may not be comprehensive. If you wish to: Create a new stub type—follow the procedure for proposing new stub types. Delete, merge or rename a stub category only, without deleting or renaming the associated stub template—follow the instructions above this section. Delete or rename a stub template—continue to section II.
II	Edit the template. Add one of the following tags at the beginning of the template to be discussed. For deletion, use {{subst:Sfd-t|Section name}} For renaming, use {{subst:Sfr-t|Proposed name|Section name}} Please include "SFD" or "SFR" in the edit summary, and don't mark the edit as minor. Preview before saving. Consider notifying the template's creator on their talk page. To find the contributor, check the page history of the stub template.
III	Create the CFD section. Click THIS LINK to edit the section of CfD for today's entries. Follow the instructions (visible in edit mode) and paste the following text (remember to update the default parameters): For deletion, use {{subst:sfd-t2|TemplateName|text=Your reason(s) for the proposed deletion. ~~~~}} For renaming, use {{subst:sfr-t2|TemplateOldName|TemplateNewName|text=Your reason(s) for the proposed deletion. ~~~~}} In your rationale, mention how many articles currently use the template to help other editors. When linking to a category in your rationale, always add a colon (:) to the beginning of the link, like [[:Category:Foo]]. This makes a category link that can be seen on the page, and avoids putting this page into the category you are nominating. Preview before saving to check that your nomination is formatted correctly, and remember to include your signature at the end of the nomination.

Notifying interested projects and editors

In addition to the steps listed above, you may choose to invite participation by editors who are likely to be informed about a nominated category. All such efforts must comply with Wikipedia's guideline against biased canvassing. In addition, to help make your messages about the CfD discussion clear, avoid Wikipedia-specific abbreviations, link to relevant policies or guidelines, and link to the discussion itself.

Notifying related WikiProjects

WikiProjects consist of groups of editors who are interested in a particular subject. If a nominated category is within the scope of one or more WikiProjects, consider adding a brief, neutral note on their talk page(s) about the nomination. You may use {{subst:cfd notice|Category name|2024 November 15|CfD section name}} ~~~~ or write a personalized message.

Tagging the nominated category's talk page with a relevant WikiProject's banner will include the category in that WikiProject's Article Alerts if they subscribe to the system. For instance, tagging a nominated category with {{WikiProject Physics}} will add the discussion to Wikipedia:WikiProject Physics/Article alerts.

Notifying substantial contributors to the category

While not required, it is generally considered courteous to notify the good-faith creator and main contributors of the category that you are nominating for discussion. To find the creator and main contributors, check the category's page history or talk page. You may use {{Cfd notice}} to inform the category's creator and all other editors.

Notifying other interested editors

It may be helpful to invite other subject-matter experts by posting a message on the talk page of the most closely related article, such as Protein family for Category:Protein families. You may use {{Cfdnotice}} for this.

Closing procedure

After seven days, someone will close the discussion according to the consensus that formed or, if needed, relist it to allow more discussion. Editors closing discussions must follow the administrator instructions and, except in the case of a "keep" or "no consensus" outcome, implement the result or log it at the Working page to ensure it is implemented.

Redirecting categories

"WP:CAT-R" redirects here. For the guideline on categorizing redirects, see Wikipedia:Categorizing redirects.

For an essay on this topic, see WP:Category redirects that should be kept.

In general, an unpopulated category should be deleted (see speedy deletion criterion C1) because it is not useful for navigation and sorting. In limited circumstances, and because categories cannot be redirected using "hard" redirects (i.e. #REDIRECT[[''target'']]), we use a form of "soft redirect" to solve the issue. You can create a category redirect by adding {{Category redirect|target}} to the category page. Bots patrol these categories and move articles into the "redirect" targets.

In particular, category redirects are used at the former category name when we convert hyphens into en dashes (e.g. Category:Canada-Russia relations → Category:Canada–Russia relations). It is also helpful to set up category redirects from titles with plain letters (i.e. characters on a standard keyboard) where the category names include diacritics.

A list of redirected categories is available at Category:Wikipedia soft redirected categories.

Speedy renaming and merging

Speedy renaming or speedy merging of categories may be requested only if they meet a speedy criterion, for example WP:C2D (consistency with main article's name) or WP:C2C (consistency with established category tree names). Please see instructions below.

1. Determine which speedy criterion applies
2. Tag category page with {{subst:cfr-speedy|New name}} or {{subst:cfm-speedy|Merge target}}
3. List request along with speedy criteria reason under "Current requests" below on this page

Please note that a speedy request must state which of the narrowly defined criteria strictly applies. Hence, any other non-speedy criteria, even "common sense" or "obvious", may be suitable points, but only at a full discussion at WP:Categories for discussion.

Requests may take 48 hours to process after listing if there are no objections. This delay allows other users to review the request to ensure that it meets the speedy criteria for speedy renaming or merging, and to raise objections to the proposed change.

Categories that qualify for speedy deletion (per Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion, e.g., "patent nonsense", "recreation") can be tagged with the regular speedy tags, such as {{db|reason}} with no required delay. Empty categories can be deleted if they remain empty 7 days after tagging with {{db-empty}}. Renaming under C2E may also be processed instantly (at the discretion of an administrator) as it is a variation on G7.

To oppose a speedy request you must record your objection within 48 hours of the nomination. Do this by inserting immediately under the nomination:

• Oppose, (the reasons for your objection). ~~~~

You will not be able to do this by editing the page WP:Categories for discussion. Instead, you should edit the section WP:Categories for discussion#Add requests for speedy renaming and merging here or the page WP:Categories for discussion/Speedy#Add requests for speedy renaming and merging here (WP:CFDS). Be aware that in the course of any discussion, the nomination and its discussion may get moved further down the page purely for organizational convenience – you may need to search WP:CFDS to find the new location. Participate in any ongoing discussion, but unless you withdraw your opposition, a knowledgeable person may eventually bring forward the nomination and discussion to become a regular CFD discussion. At that stage you may add further comments, but your initial opposition will still be considered. However, if after seven days there has been no support for the request, and no response from the nominator, the request may be dropped from further consideration as a speedy.

Contested speedy requests become stale, and can be untagged and delisted after 7 days of inactivity. Optionally, if the discussion may be useful for future reference, it may be copied to the category talk page, with a section heading and {{moved discussion from|[[WP:CFDS]]|2=~~~~}}. If the nominator wants to revive the process, this may be requested at WP:Categories for discussion (CfD) in accordance with its instructions.

If you belatedly notice and want to oppose a speedy move that has already been processed, contact one of the admins who process the Speedy page. If your objection seems valid, they may reverse the move, or start a full CFD discussion.

Speedy criteria

The category-specific criteria for speedy renaming, or merging are strictly limited to:

C2A: Typographic and spelling fixes

• Correction of spelling errors and capitalization fixes. Differences between British and American spelling (e.g. Harbours → Harbors) are not considered errors; however if the convention of the relevant category tree is to use one form over the other then a rename may be appropriate under C2C. If both spellings exist as otherwise-identical category names, they should be merged.
• Appropriate conversion of hyphens into en dashes or vice versa (e.g. Category:Canada-Russia relations → Category:Canada–Russia relations).
• Correction of obvious grammatical errors, such as a missing conjunction (e.g. Individual frogs toads → Individual frogs and toads). This includes pluralizing a noun in the name of a set category, but not when disagreement might reasonably be anticipated as to whether the category is a topic or set category.

C2B: Consistency with established Wikipedia naming conventions and practices

• Expanding abbreviated country names (e.g. U.S. → United States).
• Disambiguation fixes from an unqualified name (e.g. Category:Washington → Category:Washington (state) or Category:Washington, D.C.).

C2C: Consistency with established category tree names

Bringing a category into line with established naming conventions for that category tree, or into line with the various "x by y", "x of y", or "x in y" categorization conventions specified at Wikipedia:Category names

• This should be used only where there is no room for doubt that the category in question is being used for the standard purpose instead of being a potential subcategory.
• This criterion should be applied only when there is no ambiguity or doubt over the existence of a category naming convention. Such a convention must be well defined and must be overwhelmingly used within the tree. If this is not the case then the category in question must be brought forward to a full Cfd nomination.
• This criterion will not apply in cases where the category tree observes distinctions in local usage (e.g. Category:Transportation in the United States and Category:Transport in the United Kingdom).

C2D: Consistency with main article's name

• Renaming a topic category to match its eponymous page (e.g. Category:The Beatles and The Beatles).
• This applies only if the related page's current name (and by extension, the proposed name for the category) is:
  • unambiguous (so it generally does not apply to proposals to remove a disambiguator from the category name, even when the main article is the primary topic of its name, i.e. it does not contain a disambiguator); and
  • uncontroversial, either because of longstanding stability at that particular name, or because the page was just moved (i) after a page move discussion resulted in explicit consensus to rename, or (ii) unilaterally to reflect an official renaming which is verified by one or more citations (provided in the nomination). C2D does not apply if the result would be contrary to guidelines at WP:CATNAME, or there is any ongoing discussion about the name of the page or category, or there has been a recent discussion concerning any of the pages that resulted in a no consensus result, or it is controversial in some other way.
• This criterion may also be used to rename a set category in the same circumstances, where the set is defined by a renamed topic; e.g. players for a sports team, or places in a district.
• Before nominating a category to be renamed per WP:C2D, consider whether it makes more sense to move the article instead of the category.

C2E: Author request

• This criterion applies only if the author of a category requests or agrees to renaming within six months of creating the category.
• The criterion does not apply if other editors have populated or changed the category since it was created. "Other editors" includes bots that populated the category, but excludes an editor working with the author on the renaming.

C2F: One eponymous page

• This criterion applies if the category contains only an eponymous article, list, template or media file, provided that the category has not otherwise been emptied shortly before the nomination. The default outcome is an upmerge to the parent categories, where applicable. Nominations should use {{subst:cfm-speedy}} (speedy merger) linking to a suitable parent category, or to another appropriate category (e.g. one that is currently on the article). When listing the nomination at WP:CFDS, you must manually add all the appropriate parent categories as targets if the member page is not already in them.

Admin instructions

When handling the listings:

1. Make sure that the listing meets one of the above criteria.
2. With the exception of C2E, make sure that it was both listed and tagged at least 48 hours previously.
3. Make sure that there is no opposition to the listing; if there is a discussion, check if the opposing user(s) ended up withdrawing their opposition.

If the listing meets these criteria, simply have the category renamed or merged – follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Administrator instructions, in the section "If the decision is to Rename, Merge, or Delete"; to list it for the bots, use the Speedy moves section.

Applying speedy criteria in full discussions

• A nomination to merge or rename, brought forward as a full CfD, may be speedily closed if the closing administrator is satisfied that:
  • The nomination clearly falls within the scope of one of the criteria listed here, and
  • No objections have been made within 48 hours of the initial nomination.
• If both these conditions are satisfied, the closure will be regarded as having been a result of a speedy nomination. If any objections have been raised then the CfD nomination will remain in place for the usual 7-day discussion period, to be decided in accordance with expressed consensus.

Add requests for speedy renaming and merging here

If the category and desired change do not match one of the criteria mentioned in C2, do not list it here. Instead, list it in the main CFD section.

If you are in any doubt as to whether it qualifies, do not list it here.

Use the following format on a new line at the beginning of the list:

* [[:Category:old name]] to [[:Category:new name]] – Reason ~~~~

If the current name should be redirected rather than deleted, use:

* REDIRECT [[:Category:old name]] to [[:Category:new name]] – Reason ~~~~

To note that human action is required, e.g. updating a template that populates the category, use:

* NO BOTS [[:Category:old name]] to [[:Category:new name]] – Reason ~~~~

Remember to tag the category page with: {{subst:cfr-speedy|New name}}

A request may be completed if it is more than 48 hours old; that is, if the time stamp shown is earlier than 08:56, 13 November 2024 (UTC). Currently, there are 147 open requests ().

Current requests

Please add new requests at the top of the list, preferably with a link to the parent category (in case of C2C) or relevant article (in case of C2D).

• Category:Attempted assassination of Donald Trump to Category:Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Pennsylvania – C2D. HanTsî (talk) 07:26, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
• Category:Statues of the infant Jesus to Category:Statues of the Christ Child – C2B: per Christ Child/Category:Christ Child. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 05:36, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
• Category:Infancy Gospels to Category:Infancy gospels – C2D: per Infancy gospels. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 05:34, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
• Category:People of the American Civil War by nationality or ethnicity to Category:People of the American Civil War by nationality – C2C: Parent is People by war and nationality, and contents are clearly intended to be nationalities ^SMason_Garrison 03:47, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
• Category:M.I songs to Category:M.I Abaga songs – C2D: Article name is M.I Abaga Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me} 02:43, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Category:M.I albums to Category:M.I Abaga albums
  • Category:Albums produced by M.I to Category:Albums produced by M.I Abaga
• Category:Wellington Phoenix FC (A-League Women) to Category:Wellington Phoenix FC (women) – C2D following move of Wellington Phoenix FC (women). Listing two more for same reason: (missed it on previous mass move) --SuperJew (talk) 22:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Category:Wellington Phoenix FC (A-League Women) players to Category:Wellington Phoenix FC (women) players –-SuperJew (talk) 22:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Category:Wellington Phoenix FC (A-League Women) templates to Category:Wellington Phoenix FC (women) templates –-SuperJew (talk) 22:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
• Category:Poonch district, India to Category:Poonch District, India – C2A. Gedrose (talk) 22:17, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
• Category:Tehsils of Neelam Valley District to Category:Tehsils of Neelum District – C2D: The article is called Neelum District. Gedrose (talk) 22:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
• Category:Neelam District to Category:Neelum District – C2A. Gedrose (talk) 22:02, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
• Category:Tehsils of Jhelum Valley District to Category:Tehsils of Hattian Bala District – C2D: The district is called Hattian Bala District. Jhelum Valley was a temporary name. Gedrose (talk) 21:58, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
• Category:Jhelum Valley District to Category:Hattian Bala District – C2D: This is the name of the district. Jhelum Valley was a temporary name. Gedrose (talk) 21:57, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
• Category:Nelson A. Rockefeller to Category:Nelson Rockefeller – C2D: Per Nelson Rockefeller Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me} 20:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
• Category:Albums produced by Mark Davis to Category:Albums produced by Mark Davis (producer) – C2D: Some disambiguity is needed here. Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me} 16:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
• Category:Adelaide Victory FC players to Category:Adelaide Atletico VSC players - C2D Geregen2 (talk) 14:46, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
  • REDIRECT Category:SC Besa Pejë players to Category:FC Besa Peja players
  • Category:Bhawanipore FC to Category:Bhawanipore Club
  • Category:Bhawanipore FC players to Category:Bhawanipore Club players
  • Category:Al-Fahaheel FC to Category:Al-Fahaheel SC
  • Category:Al-Fahaheel FC managers to Category:Al-Fahaheel SC managers
  • Category:Al-Fahaheel FC players to Category:Al-Fahaheel SC players
  • Category:CSM Focșani players to Category:CSM Focșani (football) players
  • Category:CSM Focșani managers to Category:CSM Focșani (football) managers
  • REDIRECT Category:Khanh Hoa FC players to Category:Khatoco Khanh Hoa FC players
  • REDIRECT Category:Khatoco Khánh Hòa FC players to Category:Khanh Hoa FC (1976) players
  • REDIRECT Category:Länk FC Vilaverdense players to Category:Vilaverdense FC players
  • Category:Lierse Kempenzonen players to Category:Lierse S.K. (2018) players
  • REDIRECT Category:SC de Bissau to Category:Sporting de Bissau
  • REDIRECT Category:SC de Bissau players to Category:Sporting de Bissau players
  • Category:Shabab Al-Khalil SC players to Category:Shabab Al-Khaleel SC players
  • REDIRECT Category:Al Urooba Club players to Category:Al Orooba Club players
  • REDIRECT Category:Uttaradit Saksiam F.C. players to Category:TPF Uttaradit F.C. players
  • REDIRECT Category:Saint-Christophe Vallée d'Aoste players to Category:École de Football Saint-Christophe players
• Category:Irish Arctic explorers to Category:Irish explorers of the Arctic – C2C: norm is FOOian explorers of the Arctic ^SMason_Garrison 12:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  Oppose speedy I don't see any category that follows that norm. Regards, Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 05:39, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

  Comment - the parent category is Category:Explorers of the Arctic. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 07:43, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• Category:Irish Antarctic explorers to Category:Irish explorers of Antarctica – C2C: norm is FOOian explorers of Antarctica ^SMason_Garrison 12:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
• Category:Legislative elections in Equatorial Guinea to Category:Parliamentary elections in Equatorial Guinea – WP:C2D – to reflect the move of most articles in the category from 'legislative election' to 'parliamentary election' over a year ago. Number 57 03:48, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
• Category:Legislative elections in the Czech Republic to Category:Parliamentary elections in the Czech Republic – WP:C2D – to reflect the outcome of this RM that saw Czech election articles moved from 'legislative' to 'parliamentary'. Number 57 03:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
• Category:General elections in Finland to Category:Parliamentary elections in Finland – WP:C2D – all the articles in the category are "parliamentary elections" not "general elections". Also worth noting (before anyone opposes on this basis) that although it is in Category:General elections by country, that the country-specific categories are named in accordance with the article titles used for that country's election articles, and so are a mix of parliamentary/legislative/general/federal (e.g. Category:Parliamentary elections in Albania, Category:Legislative elections in Austria etc). Number 57 03:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
• Category:Buildings and structures in Santiago to Category:Buildings and structures in Santiago, Chile – C2C: Per most of the other subcategories of Category:Santiago, Chile and the result at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 November 5#Category:Santiago, Chile. The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:02, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Category:Anglican bishops of Santiago to Category:Anglican bishops of Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Bishops of Santiago to Category:Bishops of Santiago, Chile
  • Category:People from Santiago to Category:People from Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Football clubs in Santiago to Category:Football clubs in Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Television shows set in Santiago to Category:Television shows set in Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Mass media in Santiago to Category:Mass media in Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Transport in Santiago to Category:Transport in Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Football competitions in Santiago to Category:Football competitions in Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Sports competitions in Santiago to Category:Sports competitions in Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Events in Santiago to Category:Events in Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Book publishing companies based in Santiago to Category:Book publishing companies based in Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Manufacturing companies based in Santiago to Category:Manufacturing companies based in Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Companies based in Santiago to Category:Companies based in Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Organisations based in Santiago to Category:Organisations based in Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Football venues in Santiago to Category:Football venues in Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Sports venues in Santiago to Category:Sports venues in Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Diplomatic missions in Santiago to Category:Diplomatic missions in Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Monuments and memorials in Santiago to Category:Monuments and memorials in Santiago, Chile
  • Category:People from Santiago by occupation to Category:People from Santiago, Chile by occupation
  • Category:Sportspeople from Santiago to Category:Sportspeople from Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Tennis players from Santiago to Category:Tennis players from Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Swimmers from Santiago to Category:Swimmers from Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Skiers from Santiago to Category:Skiers from Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Martial artists from Santiago to Category:Martial artists from Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Golfers from Santiago to Category:Golfers from Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Footballers from Santiago to Category:Footballers from Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Field hockey players from Santiago to Category:Field hockey players from Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Cyclists from Santiago to Category:Cyclists from Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Chess players from Santiago to Category:Chess players from Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Boxers from Santiago to Category:Boxers from Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Basketball players from Santiago to Category:Basketball players from Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Athletes from Santiago to Category:Athletes from Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Writers from Santiago to Category:Writers from Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Scientists from Santiago to Category:Scientists from Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Mayors of Santiago to Category:Mayors of Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Politicians from Santiago to Category:Politicians from Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Singers from Santiago to Category:Singers from Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Musicians from Santiago to Category:Musicians from Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Military personnel from Santiago to Category:Military personnel from Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Lawyers from Santiago to Category:Lawyers from Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Clergy from Santiago to Category:Clergy from Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Businesspeople from Santiago to Category:Businesspeople from Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Artists from Santiago to Category:Artists from Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Male actors from Santiago to Category:Male actors from Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Actresses from Santiago to Category:Actresses from Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Actors from Santiago to Category:Actors from Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Academics from Santiago to Category:Academics from Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Sport in Santiago to Category:Sport in Santiago, Chile
  • Category:Football in Santiago to Category:Football in Santiago, Chile

• Category:Paintings by Daniel Hernández to Category:Paintings by Daniel Hernández Morillo – C2D: Article name is Daniel Hernández Morillo Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me} 20:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• Category:Kiss Daniel songs to Category:Kizz Daniel songs – C2D: per Kizz Daniel; article was moved to this name in 2018. Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me} 19:02, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• Category:Saiin to Category:Saiin (priestess) – C2D: per Saiin (priestess). Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 18:34, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• Category:Saigū to Category:Saiō – C2D: per Saiō. The current name is ambiguous. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 18:34, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• Category:Ise Grand Shrine to Category:Ise Shrine – C2D: per Ise Shrine. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 18:32, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• Category:State labor commmissioner elections in the United States by year to Category:State labor commissioner elections in the United States by year – C2A: sp -mmm- John of Reading (talk) 17:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• Category:Heathcliff (comics) to Category:Heathcliff (comic strip) – C2D: per Heathcliff (comic strip). Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 15:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• Category:ABL team navigational boxes to Category:Australian Baseball League team navigational boxes – C2B: per Australian Baseball League/Category:Australian Baseball League. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 15:08, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• Category:National League team maps to Category:National League (baseball) team maps – C2B: per National League (baseball). Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 15:05, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• Category:Major League Baseball standings navigational boxes to Category:Major League Baseball standings templates – C2C: per Category:Baseball standings templates and all of its subcategories (these are not navigational boxes). Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 13:26, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• Category:Progressive organizations in the United Kingdom to Category:Progressive organisations in the United Kingdom – C2C: To match parent Category:Political organisations based in the United Kingdom and use British English spelling per WP:TIES. AusLondonder (talk) 12:37, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Opposed requests

• Category:Professional wrestling shows in British Columbia to Category:Professional wrestling shows in Vancouver – C2C: To match the contents of the category. User:Namiba 19:24, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

  Oppose speedy. ^SMason_Garrison 01:41, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

  That's not c2c, and is artificially narrowing the category ^SMason_Garrison 01:42, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• Category:Jardine Matheson Group to Category:Jardines – C2D with Jardine Matheson Group moved to Jardines (company). Homeiurex (talk) 21:34, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

  Oppose as proposed This should be renamed to Category:Jardines (company). Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 15:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• Category:Substituted amphetamines to Category:Amphetamines – C2C: Non-standard chemical class category name. See here (i.e., only a single use of "Substituted" in a chemical category name on all of Wiki) and compare other closely related category names like Category:Phenethylamines, Category:Beta-Hydroxyamphetamines, Category:Methamphetamines, Category:Cathinones, Category:Tryptamines, and so forth. – 76.174.0.57 (talk) 18:46, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  Oppose The main article of the category is Substituted amphetamine. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 18:50, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, but see reasoning above and compare Category:Phenethylamines and Substituted phenethylamine, Category:Beta-Hydroxyamphetamines and Substituted β-hydroxyamphetamine, Category:Cathinones and Substituted cathinone, Category:Tryptamines and Substituted tryptamine, and so forth. Category:Substituted amphetamines is an outlier and goes against standards, including within its own category tree (it's a subcategory of Category:Phenethylamines and it contains the Category:Beta-Hydroxyamphetamines, Category:Methamphetamines, and Category:Cathinones categories). There is no reason for this inconsistency and it makes using these categories (i.e., knowing/remembering whether the category has the prefix "Substituted" in its name) more tedious than it needs to be. There are dozens of other examples as well (e.g., see here for just some of them); Category:Substituted amphetamines is the only exception having "Substituted" in the category name on the English Wikipedia. – 76.174.0.57 (talk) 18:57, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

• Category:Ascaridida to Category:Ascaridomorpha – C2D: The World Register of Marine Species (the authority on all marine taxa) accepts this taxa as infraorder Ascaridomorpha, with Ascaridida as an unaccepted synonym. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 09:39, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  Oppose speedy The main article was only recently renamed and without discussion, thus C2D doesn't apply. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 13:47, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

• Category:Non-binary gender to Category:Non-binary gender identities – C2A: Non-binary is not just one gender; neither are the pages listed in this category. This name would use proper terminology. Ranleo09 (talk) 15:17, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose, as with most gender-related topics, this is contentious and needs further discussion. Funcrunch (talk) 15:34, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

• Category:Fictional works to Category:Fictional creative works – C2C: Rename to match parent category, Category:Creative works. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 08:05, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

  Oppose Most of the subcategories in Category:Creative works just uses works. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 14:02, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

• Category:Bankstown Line to Category:Sydney Trains – C2F. AusLondonder (talk) 18:19, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  Comment The category is now empty. The only article that was in it was redirected. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 21:16, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

  I tagged it for speedy deletion. Ymblanter (talk) 06:12, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

• Category:Labor ministers by country to Category:Labour ministers by country – C2C: To match parent Category:Labour ministers. AusLondonder (talk) 20:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  @AusLondonder: I actually think it should be renamed to Category:Ministers of labour by country, based on Minister of labour. I alos believe that Category:Labour ministers should thus be renamed to Category:Ministers of labour. Hey man im josh (talk) 12:00, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

  The only question I have about that is consistency with the category tree Category:Government ministers by portfolio. AusLondonder (talk) 12:14, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, I think there are issues with that category in general @AusLondonder. I believe they were highlighted at one point when someone attempted to mass rename all of the Ministers of defense categories to defense ministers, by, I want to say, Secretlondon? Hey man im josh (talk) 12:53, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah I remember an objection at some point earlier this year to a nomination to standardise these categories but can't recall the details. AusLondonder (talk) 13:00, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

  @AusLondonder (sorry for repeated pinging, just don't want you to think I haven't responded or anything): My understanding, at the time, was that some countries do call their ministers "Defense minister" whereas others use "Minister of defense", so it would/should be a case by case basis. Not sure how we properly apply that to the general parent categories though. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:20, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

  No need to apologise, yes that sounds familiar. If I have the time I might look back and see if I can find the discussion. AusLondonder (talk) 13:24, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Fayenatic london: Ymblanter (talk) 20:19, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

  Nice question! I think C2D could override C2C for Labour ministers, because (i) there are no country-specific titles listed at Minister of Labour which use "labour minister", and (ii) there is the potential ambiguity with Labour parties. The national sub-cats should probably be renamed "Ministers of/for labour" according to local usage. For the UK we could use the current ministerial title, Category:Secretaries of state for work and pensions, but that doesn't identify the country, so maybe keep a generic title as a parent. – Fayenatic London 17:40, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  Should we send this to a full CFD to discuss? Or can we move to Category:Ministers of labour by country if everyone agrees? Ymblanter (talk) 06:26, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

  I'd support that move personally. Hey man im josh (talk) 20:29, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

  Yes – Fayenatic London 11:08, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

  @AusLondonder: Ymblanter (talk) 21:58, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

• Category:Cave diving explorers to Category:Cave divers – C2C: Rename to a more easily understandable, and one that is used within the sport. Kingsmasher678 (talk) 19:24, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Kingsmasher678: How is this a WP:C2C? The parent category is Underwater diving explorers, so I think this rename would go against consistency. jlwoodwa (talk) 19:28, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  For the diving categories it may be consistent, but the cave/caving articles all refer to these people as "cave divers", like cavers not being called "underground caving explorers".

  Kingsmasher678 (talk) 19:42, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  WP:C2C is about category naming conventions, not the wording used in articles. jlwoodwa (talk) 20:26, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  What I am saying is that the category naming conventions in the cave space do not reflect the current name of the category. Cave diving falls under that space at least as much as it does under the scuba section, and this is the correct term. If I didn't use the correct rational, please let me know a better one!

  Kingsmasher678 (talk) 21:57, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  • @Kingsmasher678: if you want to pursue this you really need to take it to full discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:54, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

• Category:4th-century maharajadhirajas to Category:4th-century Maharajadhirajas – "Maharajadhiraja" is consistently capitalised in sources per ngrams. PadFoot (talk) 16:40, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Category:5th-century maharajadhirajas to Category:5th-century Maharajadhirajas
  • Category:6th-century maharajadhirajas to Category:6th-century Maharajadhirajas
  • Category:7th-century maharajadhirajas to Category:7th-century Maharajadhirajas
  • Category:8th-century maharajadhirajas to Category:8th-century Maharajadhirajas
  • Category:10th-century maharajadhirajas to Category:10th-century Maharajadhirajas
  • Category:11th-century maharajadhirajas to Category:11th-century Maharajadhirajas
  • Category:12th-century maharajadhirajas to Category:12th-century Maharajadhirajas

@PadFoot2008: Your ngram uses the singular version of the term. Wouldn't MOS:JOBTITLES apply in this case? Hey man im josh (talk) 17:34, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Hello @Hey man im josh, plural still shows consistency in use of capitalised [1]. PadFoot (talk) 01:18, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

That ngram appears to actually not be showing the downcased version, but I'm not understanding why MOS:JOBTITLES wouldn't apply in this situation. It also looks like you created all of the categories yourself, so you must have also thought it should be downcased at one point. Perhaps this nomination would benefit from a CFD instead of a speedy renaming. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:36, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:MOS overrides style elsewhere (e.g. evidence from Ngrams). So I think these categories should be left as they are. – Fayenatic London 11:04, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I have only tagged these categories now.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:48, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• Category:Wikipedia:GLAM/NARA participants to Category:Wikipedia-National Archives and Records Administration collaboration participants – C2C. Gonnym (talk) 13:34, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
• Category:Wikipedia:GLAM/MoMA participants to Category:Wikipedia-Museum of Modern Art collaboration participants – C2C. Gonnym (talk) 13:34, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
• Category:Wikipedia:GLAM/The Met participants to Category:Wikipedia-Metropolitan Museum of Art collaboration participants – C2C. Gonnym (talk) 13:33, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
• Category:Wikipedia:GLAM/TCMI participants to Category:Wikipedia-The Children's Museum of Indianapolis collaboration participants – C2C. Gonnym (talk) 13:33, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
• Category:WikiProject GLAM/AAA participants to Category:Wikipedia-Archives of American Art collaboration participants – C2C with parent category. Gonnym (talk) 13:31, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
• Category:WikiProject GLAM/SI participants to Category:Wikipedia-Smithsonian Institution collaboration participants – C2C with parent category. Gonnym (talk) 13:31, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
• Category:WikiProject GLAM/IMJ participants to Category:Wikipedia-Israel Museum, Jerusalem collaboration participants – C2C with parent category. Gonnym (talk) 13:30, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
• Category:Wikipedia:GLAM/TP participants to Category:Wikipedia-Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa collaboration participants – C2C with parent category. Gonnym (talk) 13:28, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

  Oppose speedy for GLAM categories. There is no clear convention for the proposed format. The parent categories by themself are not enough to establish that. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 03:53, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  • @Gonnym: are you planning to take these to full discussion? Marcocapelle (talk) 09:02, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

    Nope. If Armbrust wants a lousy user experience, then I'm not bothering with it. Gonnym (talk) 11:28, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• Category:Amazon Game Studios games to Category:Amazon Games games – C2B: per Amazon Games. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 17:26, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Gonnym: could you please have a look? Ymblanter (talk) 21:34, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  Oppose rename, instead split. Thanks for the ping. Only New World (video game) was released after the name change. The list at Amazon Games has more than these 3 games so there shouldn't be an issue of small categories if populated correctly. On a tangent note, our naming convention for this type of stuff is confusing and the category explanation isn't helpful either. Produced and distributed are two different things (and we use "developed" for games in the infobox). Gonnym (talk) 10:48, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

  • @Armbrust: would you want to create and populate Category:Amazon Games games per Gonnym, or would you take this to full discussion? Marcocapelle (talk) 08:59, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

• Category:PWHL New York to Category:New York Sirens – C2D. User:Namiba 14:14, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Category:PWHL New York players to Category:New York Sirens players
• Category:PWHL Montreal coaches to Category:Montreal Victoire coaches – C2D. User:Namiba 14:14, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
• Category:PWHL Boston to Category:Boston Fleet – C2D. User:Namiba 14:12, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Category:PWHL Boston coaches to Category:Boston Fleet coaches
  • Category:PWHL Boston seasons to Category:Boston Fleet seasons
• Category:PWHL Montreal to Category:Montreal Victoire – C2D. User:Namiba 14:48, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
• Category:PWHL Ottawa to Category:Ottawa Charge – C2D. User:Namiba 14:07, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  Contesting all PWHL moves. Discussion should be had as to whether these should be separate categories pre- and post-rebrand. Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 16:10, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  • @Namiba: are you planning to take these to full discussion? Marcocapelle (talk) 08:52, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

    Yes--User:Namiba 22:07, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

On hold pending other discussion

• None currently

Moved to full discussion

• Category:20th-century explorers from the Russian Empire to Category:20th-century Russian explorers – C2C: The norm is for the 20th century to be Russian FOO ^SMason_Garrison 03:20, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Oppose speedy All of the entries in the category were born before 1917, and thus in the Russian Empire. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 22:08, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

  Would you like me to remove them? The norm is for this category to be called Category:20th-century Russian FOO. Are they not also russian? I do not see why this category should be treated differently than every other 20th-century Russian people category. @Armbrust Are you still opposed? ^SMason_Garrison 20:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

  Oppose a valid item in the subtree category:Explorers by former country. --Altenmann >talk 21:07, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

  I already moved this to a full nomination. Why are you opposing here?^SMason_Garrison 02:26, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

• Category:Pre-1876 life peers to Category:Life peers created before 1876 – C2C: with subcategories, and generally clearer — RAVENPVFF · talk · 18:22, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

  Oppose: Not a list of peers created (i.e. born, or conceived) before 1876, but of peerages. “Category:Life peerages created before 1876” or “Category:Life peerages before 1876” would useful and not inaccurate, and “List of life peerages before 1876” (not category) already exists. Stephan Leeds (talk) 00:47, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Stephan Leeds: true, but all the subcats use "Life peers created by…", so the nomination was valid under C2C. Do you want to nominate the cat and its sub-(sub-)cats for a full CFD? – Fayenatic London 21:32, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Stephan Leeds: This category contains biographical articles about peers (people), not articles about peerages (titles), so the category tree name is correct. As Fayenatic london stated, this is the same as all other subcategories, e.g. Category:Life peers created by Charles III. — RAVENPVFF · talk · 16:02, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  Now at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 November 9#Category:Pre-1876 life peers. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 00:01, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Ready for deletion

Check Category:Empty categories awaiting deletion for out of process deletions. In some cases, these will need to be nominated for discussion and the editor who emptied the category informed that they should follow the WP:CFD process.

Once the renaming has been completed, copy and paste the listing to the Ready for deletion section of Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Working/Manual.

Empty categories awaiting deletion

The categories listed below have been identified as empty using {{db-catempty}}, and will be speedily deleted after 7 days unless populated. (Note: Due to technical limitations, all contents of the category may not be displayed; view the category directly to see all contents.)

Empty categories awaiting deletion

People from Cheongwon District

Armeno-Georgian War

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Astronomy in Malaysia

Bankstown Line

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People from Nishi, Kobe

User lua-N

FA-Class Philippine music articles

Milan the Leather Boy albums

Esports in Bangladesh

People murdered in the Pitcairn Islands

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500 mm gauge railways in Greece

Home appliance manufacturers of Egypt

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Times that 500 Wikipedians supported something

Amarsipidae

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Veerashaiva

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Times that 600 Wikipedians supported something

Candomblés

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Times that 700 Wikipedians supported something

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Restaurants in Dorset

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Prior-Palmer family